Japan’s Rich MMA History: The Ken Shamrock Interview, Part 6 of 7

Japan’s Rich MMA History: The Ken Shamrock Interview (2015)

Part Six of Seven: UFC 2, UFC 3, and the Machado Family

By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com

William Colosimo: Another gi question: I don’t know at what point between UFC 1 and UFC 5 this took place, but the story goes that you and Funaki traveled to the Machado family’s jiu-jitsu school, wanting to learn the gi- and they had told you that if you put a gi on they would be willing to roll with you, but understandably not teach you to fight their family. Did this happen?

Ken Shamrock: Yeah, we walked into there, and they wouldn’t roll with us without the gi.

WC: Just the gi top? Were you allowed to wear shorts, or did you have to wear the gi bottom?

KS: I don’t remember the extent of it, but I do know that we had to wear the top, for sure. It was a long time ago, but I do know for a fact they would not roll with me without the gi. Now, they went with Funaki- and Funaki rolled with one of them… that had the one hand?

WC: Jean Jacques Machado.

KS: Yeah. And then he rolled with a couple of the other guys and Funaki said he didn’t want me to go in there and do that, because at the time I was the best.

WC: Was Funaki wearing a gi?

KS: Well, yeah. I rolled with these guys too with the gi on- what I’m explaining is that after we rolled with them for a while with the gi on and allowed them to do all those things, and we were rolling with them- we were fine with that. We wanted to go without the gi and they said no. But Funaki kept telling them Well, how about me. I’ll roll with you. And they go Well, OK- but will you wear a shirt? And so Funaki said I’ll wear a shirt, no problem. But you can’t pull the shirt, you can’t choke me with the shirt. We roll just like this. They finally agreed, but it was with just Funaki. So Funaki rolls with ‘em, and they’re going about two, three, four minutes- and Funaki is looking pretty good. Then all of a sudden you see Funaki’s shirt get stretched across his throat, right? And Funaki’s telling them Hey, you can’t pull the shirt as the guy goes tighter and tighter and pretty soon Funaki taps. So Funaki stands up, and the collar of his shirt is completely stretched out- so Funaki looks at him and goes Hey, I thought you weren’t going to pull the shirt. He looked at Funaki and said I didn’t choke you with the shirt- he said he didn’t choke him with the shirt, but the collar was completely stretched out (laughter). Yeah, it got pretty heated there for a while, because then they started screaming and yelling- Funaki just said OK, OK, whatever. You know, we were in their house- we weren’t gonna cause any problems. But, they wouldn’t go with me without the gi.

WC: Were you there for a good while?

KS: We were there for two hours.

WC: How did you find the school?

KS: I don’t know. Funaki… they came down from Japan and they had it all planned and laid out- that they would pick me up, and we would go just roll with them because we were trying to get them to come into the Pancrase organization.

WC: When you were trying to get them into Pancrase- you mean the Machados, or some of the Gracies?

KS: We wanted the Machados in. We wanted the Machados to be a part of the Pancrase organization. We wanted them to bring their team members in and fight in Pancrase.

WC: Ah. And, did they tell you when you and Funaki were sparring- did you already know by that point that they weren’t interested in coming in?

KS:No, I think they had already made clear that they weren’t interested, but- we wanted to come in and roll with them and see if we could change their mind. And again, like I said- nobody was in there trying to take over their gym. We weren’t trying to embarrass them at all. That would have been a bad deal for anybody. So, we went in there very humble- we put the gi on, we rolled with them, they were the king- and then when it was all said and done, they still weren’t interested.

WC: Oh. So, correct me if I’m wrong- I had originally thought the main reason you went down there was to learn the gi so you could beat Royce the next time around- but you guys really went down there to try and get them to compete in Pancrase.

KS: Yes. I didn’t go down there to learn the gi, although that was my intention when I was asked to go with Funaki- when I rolled with those guys, it was to learn more about the gi.

WC: Was Suzuki there with you guys at the Machado’s school?

KS: It was a long time ago but the only ones I remember were me and Funaki- and I believe Fuke. I’m not sure. I don’t remember Suzuki being there.

WC: When you were training for UFC 2- I think you broke your forearm blocking a kick from Vernon?

KS: No, it wasn’t my forearm, it was my hand.

WC: You were injured. Now, was it too early- or did you have any idea who your first round opponent was supposed to be at the second UFC?

KS: Oh I don’t know, but if it was a sixteen-man tournament- I’d almost bet you a dime to a donut that I would have fought everybody tough before I got to the finals.

WC: Even though you didn’t end up competing in UFC 2, you obviously wanted Royce and trained for that potential match. By the time of this show- four months after UFC 1- do you remember any kind of specific strategy you might have had if you were to meet Royce that night?

KS: Well, I know this– after the very first time that I faced him, I understood that I underestimated the gi- didn’t truly understand what it was capable of doing. I also didn’t understand the importance of the shoe or even the experience of having no shoe, and being able to practice in a canvas ring so that you could understand what you could or could not do. These are things that I’d learned when I had lost that fight with Royce- was the understanding of how important it was to be prepared going in to a fight for a style and also equipment, so I made sure that there were no surprises, and that I understood Royce’s gi and the style that they used it in, very well. So, for the second one- I was already in great shape- I already went forty-six minutes over in Japan- straight, with no rounds, so I knew I was in great shape to go an hour or two hour fight if I had to. So, even as I prepared for Royce in the second UFC even though we didn’t meet, my whole thing was I wanted to just completely nullify the Gracie myth of anybody, anywhere, anytime, no matter what size they are, and that their submission and their style is the best. I was just gonna wear him down. And again, I had the same plan after that for the next one after that- I just wanted to destroy him, I wanted to be in better shape, I wanted to wear him down, I wanted him to not be able to move, and then I was going to submit him.

WC: It looks like you just covered my next question- you fought at UFC 3, but didn’t get to fight Royce- it sounds like you just gave me your game plan vs Royce for UFC 3, too- if in theory you got to fight him.

KS: That’s it.

WC: Jason Delucia was in UFC 2. He told me that by that time he was training with you a bit here and there, but wasn’t an actual Lion’s Den member until shortly after that show. You were also slated to fight on that card, until the hand break. Before the hand break, did you guys discuss the possibility of having to fight each other in UFC 2?

KS: I really don’t remember if we did or did not talk. If we did, I’m sure it wasn’t a concern of mine. It would only mean I wouldn’t want him down there until after that.

WC: When Frank started training at your gym, was he anybody’s young boy? Was he basically under you?

KS: There was no such thing in our gym, man- everybody worked together. Everybody taught everybody. Everybody helped each other, whatever stage they were in you would work with them and you would all work together to get to that level. I know Jerry Bohlander had taken Pete Williams under his wing, and they had worked together- along with Frank and other people during that time. There was really no pecking order as far as that was concerned. We had a fighter’s house. You had guys that were better than other guys, and that were a little more skilled than other guys as they’ve been there a little bit longer- but they all worked together. They all trained together. People would sometimes rise up past somebody else quicker and develop faster.

WC: As you walked to the ring for your first fight at UFC 3, broadcasters Brian Kilmeade and Ben Perry had mentioned that you were in a videogame and a cartoon over in Japan. Is that true?

KS: Yes.

WC: Can you get into what the videogame or cartoon was about?

KS: Well, I just know that I really blew up fast. I was on I don’t know how many different covers of Baseball Magazine and Real Wrestling Magazine. I know they had written a couple different comic books that featured me, and then they had a video game- it was me but they used a different name- so, it was pretty cool because I saw all this stuff blowing up around me. I was on the cover of all the magazines, I was ranked the number one fighter in Japan, so things were moving out pretty well and it was fun.

WC: I know for UFC 4 they drew lots at a press conference to determine the matchups at that show. At UFC 3, how did you find out you were fighting Christophe Leininger? How were matchups determined?

KS: That I don’t know, it was a long time ago- I focused on just preparing for a fight. Didn’t care who I fought. I didn’t know all the politics that were going on at the time, I was just focused on what I had to do. A lot of things were changing on me- when they took my shoes away, and then one time they gave them back- so, it was a lot of stuff that could have distracted you- so I basically just fought however they told me to fight, I didn’t care. I felt like I didn’t want that stuff to get in the way of what I was trying to accomplish. I realize now, looking back on UFC 1, that when they took the shoes away that day– I realized how big of a factor that was going into that fight with Royce, because the second time I fought him it was a whole different ball game. I really lit Royce up, and went thirty-six minutes- and would have beaten him if there hadn’t been a time limit put in that day.

WC: You had worn shoes for your UFC 3 fights. Was there a big argument about you wearing the shoes that night- did they still not want you to wear them?

KS: Well we asked them, we brought that up- it was like Why in the world are you taking away my shoes? And we knew what they were gonna say- I knew what they were gonna say- Well, because it’s a weapon. And then I threw back at them What about the gi?- they said Well, that’s different. I asked How is that different? They said They use that for technique and training, and I said So do I with my shoes. The response was Well yeah, but it’s not a weapon, and I said Well I beg to differ, I just got choked with it. And I couldn’t pull it off because it’s made out of material in which- it takes a thousand pounds to rip those things, and obviously I don’t possess that kind of strength to rip it, so how can that not be a weapon if it’s not his body that’s doing the work and the choke. So, that’s when they lifted it- after I complained about why they took my shoes away, because it affected me tremendously. Especially not being able to practice at all without wearing shoes, they didn’t tell us until the day of the fight- so then they were taken away, and I never had an opportunity to even experience the canvas without shoes.

WC: Your second fight that night was against Felix Lee Mitchell. Right before the match started Kilmeade mentioned that you were staying in a room next to Felix all week. Did you interact much with him fight week?

KS: I didn’t even know he was staying next to me. I don’t think I ever saw him- if I did, I didn’t realize it because I didn’t know who I was fighting. We didn’t know who was who- we didn’t know anybody’s fighting backgrounds, it’s not like today where we’ve got all this social media and you’re able to pull somebody’s name up and find out who they are. I wasn’t into it like that then. Now it’s a lot more accessible for MMA to find out who’s who. But then, we really never knew who was fighting- we had guys walking around that looked like they were from the street, and then you see them next thing in the locker room. So- it was the wild, wild west. You had to focus on what your job was and not worry about all the other stuff that was going on around you.

WC: In that fight- was Felix trying to move your cup for some groin shots?

KS: Yeah (laughter). Same as Dan Severn did when I was choking him. Mitchell actually reached inside my shorts and tried to pull my cup. But I had the muay thai cup, where it ties and is very snug- and so, if I had been wearing the normal cups other guys were wearing he would have moved that, and he would have been able to hit me in the groin- that would have really made me angry and I would have hurt him very, very seriously. It made me angry when he was trying to do it then- then I just choked him. It was like I said, the wild, wild west- for people to even think about stuff like that- I came from the street. I fought in the street. But, it doesn’t cross my mind to do that. It didn’t cross my mind, even being a street fighter, out there surviving- you think about picking up a stick or a knife or something like that before you think about taking someone’s nuts out. To me stuff like that never crossed my mind- even being a tough guy.

WC: Still on UFC 3- after your two fights that night you found out Royce wasn’t going to continue. I know your knee was bothering you and you lost the desire to go to the finals, seeing that Royce was out. I know your stepdad was upset with you about your decision- but what were Funaki and Suzuki’s initial reactions when you didn’t want to continue on to the finals?

KS: I think they were probably the only ones who really understood that it was an honor type thing. I wasn’t there to become famous, I wasn’t there to make fifty thousand dollars. I was there for one goal, and that was to get revenge. It was to beat the guy that beat me. And, I thought that I was robbed- I thought they pulled a lot of shaky things to get that win. So, I wanted to prove to everybody that that’s what happened- it wasn’t because of my ability, because I believe that I was better than him- even with the amount of experience that I had and that he had I believed I was better than him. Even in the match, I felt like if I would have had my shoes, I would have been able to complete that leg lock- and even if I didn’t tap him out I woulda broke his leg and the fight would have gone differently. But because the shoes were taken away, it changed the dynamic of the fight- it kept me off balance, I never had been in the ring before without shoes and I never got a chance to experience walking in the ring without shoes. And so, going into that fight my mentality was it doesn’t matter. I mean I was a fighter, I was focused, I didn’t care- I just wanted to go.

You look back on it, that’s the kind of mentality you want from somebody- but, I didn’t have anybody around me to protect me and say No, no, no. That’s just not gonna happen because it’s a whole different game in there without shoes on. I didn’t know that. So I go in there, and obviously I have problems. But, if I was able to practice or have some ability to learn what will or will not work in there with or without shoes- just like I fought him the second time, it was a big difference. And it wasn’t that much time that had gone in between the first one and the second one that would have made a whole lotta difference as far as ability, skill, and conditioning. I was able to do much, much more because I knew the ability that I had going into the fight with him- what I could and could not do.

Part One of Seven: An Introduction to the Hard-style Pro Wrestling

Part Two of Seven: The Professional Wrestling Fujiwara-Gumi

Part Three of Seven: Pancrase

Part Four of Seven: Pancrase Controversy

Part Five of Seven: Creating The Lion’s Den and Entering the First UFC

Thursday – Part Seven of Seven: The Russian Bear and The Hammer

Visit Ken at www.kenshamrock.com

William Colosimo is a very part time writer who is always interested in interviewing fighters from either a submission wrestling lineage or the no holds barred era of fighting

Ken Shamrock is looking to reacquire all old Lion’s Den video footage- recordings of tryouts, gym fights, etcetera. If anything is in your possession, please feel free to contact him at www.kenshamrock.com