Japan’s Rich MMA History: The Ken Shamrock Interview, Final part

Japan’s Rich MMA History: The Ken Shamrock Interview (2015)

Part Seven of Seven: The Russian Bear and The Hammer

By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com

William Colosimo: Going into UFC 3, you could have been considered the underdog vs Royce in that potential rematch due to your previous loss against him. Going into UFC 6 I think a lot of people had you as the underdog vs Severn also. Do you think if you had lost those matches, would that have made Pancrase lose face because you were their top fighter? Would they have been concerned about that? 

Ken Shamrock: Well, it’s- wow, I never really looked at it like that. It would be sad for an organization to lose face over an individual– there were a lot of great fighters in Pancrase, which we’ve found out through the years: Bas Rutten, Josh Barnett, Funaki, Suzuki, Maurice Smith, Guy Mezger, Pete Williams- the list just goes on of guys that were successful in MMA. So, I’m not sure that- just cause I was the champion at the time, and obviously I lost the belt a little bit after that- but that Pancrase organization was built by a bunch of great fighters. I don’t believe by me going in there and competing in a thing such as MMA, bare knuckle or closed fisted, definitely more mixed martial arts- I don’t believe, or at least I would hope- for a moment that if I would have lost those fights it would have hurt the organization. I believe it would have hurt me, personally, where I stood in the history of things- but I really don’t believe that that would hurt the organization because it wasn’t one fighter the fans were following- they were following because it was exciting to watch.

WC: The reason I bring it up is because when people unfamiliar with Pancrase discuss that organization, they don’t know if there were or were not works-

KS: They were not works- I can tell you right now, I’m involved in it- those guys were in there competing their asses off and they were getting broken ankles, broken noses, and going to the hospital. They were not works. I promise you that. There were only a few situations that were in there, and that had to do with just me. And it was only with one particular event, and that was due to a situation that happened. But I promise you- even the fights where guys last a little bit longer than they should have- the right guy won. They were just trying to give these guys an opportunity to be able to get some ring experience in there, and not just go in and crush ‘em, but give them a chance to grow in the sport. But, no- nobody gave anybody anything in there when it came to victory, except for one time where I had an issue I had to deal with. Other than that, everything in there was legit and I don’t like it when these guys paint the picture of that because it’s not true.

WC: The King of Pancrase tournament was a two-night event held December 16th and December 17th, 1994. UFC 4 was held on December 16th, 1994. For you, was there any difficulty choosing which tournament to compete in?

KS: No, not at all. My obligations- and I made it really clear to Pancrase- that my obligations were to them. I signed with them first. My loyalty was to them. If I had to make a choice, and both fights were on the same day, I would go with Pancrase because they’re the ones that signed me first. 

WC: Anthony Macias- he competed in UFC 4 vs Dan Severn. He was a pretty well rounded NHB fighter. He seemed like he was friendly with Oleg Taktarov and Guy Mezger- I’m wondering if there’s any reason Macias didn’t join the Lion’s Den? Did he ever train with you?

KS: He trained with us but he never joined because I don’t think that he wanted to put himself through the tryout.

WC: Guy Mezger fought in UFC 4. I believe he had mentioned in the past that before fighting in that event, you had told him that he was pretty much ready to win that whole show.

KS: Yes- I believed that very much.

WC: You had mentioned that you would bring guys in from Dallas among other places and have full on fights in the gym in preparation for your UFC matches. Was Guy one of the people you had a full on match with early on?

KS: Yes.

WC: Out of your Lion’s Den fighters- whether it’s Frank, Guy, Jason, Pete, Jerry, whoever- in general, who gave you the most trouble when you were going full on?

KS: It would be Guy.

WC: The next person I wanted to talk to you about was Oleg Taktarov. Did you meet him through Guy Mezger?

KS: Yes, I did. He was at Guy’s gym when I first met him.

WC: He came to train with you for the UFC 6 tournament?

KS: Yeah, he had actually qualified for the tournament and he needed to get prepared for that event. Guy asked me if he could come and train with me because he knew I could really work with him and get him prepared because I was getting prepared for my fight- so I brought him up and I worked with him, I trained him and I worked, trying to get him ready- it was hard because Oleg had this mentality- and it was hard to get him to understand that the idea is not to get hit– to try and keep moving and position yourself so you can get in a good position to finish the fight. It was almost like he didn’t care if he got hit, and that he would wear somebody down and then submit them. But I couldn’t get him to break that mentality, to just defend himself a little better than that. He took such a beating in a lot of his fights.

WC: I think you had mentioned in the past that your strategy vs Oleg in UFC 7 was to stand up and strike a lot because when he was training with you, you were able to light him up fairly well on the feet.

KS: Yeah, and I also knew that the way he was, too- was that if I got a submission hold on him, he wouldn’t tap and I would have to break it, and I felt like- what’s the worst thing that can happen in a fight? That’s to break somebody’s leg or arm. What’s the best thing that could happen to somebody in a fight? If they get knocked out- they recover after fifteen to twenty days from the concussion, or whatever it is, and they can be back and fighting again- and we had planned on bringing him to Japan. So, my thought process was- listen. I’m not gonna try and heel hook him, or knee bar him, or kimura him, or any of that stuff- because he won’t tap, and I’ll have to break it, and then he’ll tap, and the damage is done, and then he won’t be able to fight. So I thought, You know what? I’m going to try and knock him out. And that way, at least if I knock him out he’s recovered after fifteen to twenty days, and he can go back to competing again. So, that was my thought process.

WC: I think you had mentioned on one of the PPV events that Oleg basically had no neck, and that’s why you didn’t try to choke him. Did you guys spar a lot of grappling? Were you even on the leg locks, but just not able to choke him?

KS: No, I’m sure he’ll tell you a different story- but there’s no one better than me at the leg locks. I had the ability for people to get my leg and just twist it upside down, and I was able to- Bas did it to me one time, and he thought I was Gumby. He just couldn’t believe I didn’t tap. But I’m very flexible and my legs turned almost upside down, and then I turned around and heelhooked Bas. After the match he said Damn dude, you’ve got rubber bands for your joints. So, my leg game was very good- and Oleg’s game was also very good. He had a really good achilles lock, which was something that I was very strong at. But when it came to the leg game, there was no way he could have competed with me. I just knew that if I got him in a leg lock, I would have to break it- and that’s not something I wanted to do.

WC: Did you train under or with Gokor Chivichyan? I’ve seen a video of you guys working out- you were on bottom but it looked and sounded like you were coaching him and training him. Who trained who?

KS: Well, everybody’s going to say their own story. Gokor is a great teacher, he does do leg locks, he’s efficient at it, so does Oleg- those guys trained it probably before I started training it, when they were in Russia. So they’ve definitely been doing it longer than I have- but I think that my actions speak very, very loud about how effective my leg game was, and that nobody wanted to do legs with me. Even Oleg wouldn’t touch my legs- even when we were in that fight, he wouldn’t go for a leg lock. So, that should tell you something considering that his whole game plan with everybody else was to attack their legs- and not one time did he ever attempt to go for mine.

WC: In a couple of older interviews I read, Gokor claimed he had trained a number of UFC champions- he wouldn’t name names though. This would have been around the time when you, Oleg, and Severn were champs. Are you one of the champions he was referring to?

KS: No, that’s not true. We trained together, we worked out together, we were friends- but you can’t take credit for something that you didn’t do.

WC: From what I understand the early UFC wasn’t really accepted in Japan- it was seen maybe as a little bit more brutal where Pancrase technique was considered cleaner. Did the Japanese prowrestling and fight fans follow the UFC for its first few years? Or did they not accept it?

KS:No, they did- Kazushi Sakuraba went over and competed. In fact twice. One time he lost supposedly because they said he tapped or whatever- and they stopped the fight. He complained, he fought the guy again- he beat him. I believe the Japanese people- I’m the one that brought it to their attention- Hey. Weneed to start listening to what the world’s doing. I mean, this thing is jumping up. And I believe it’s gonna be exciting and people are going to want to see it, we need to get ready for this. So, by me bringing the attention to them, it actually got them prepared for what was coming. Cause I really believe if I hadn’t gotten involved and I hadn’t brought it to their attention, that UFC would have came up and that they would have been the thing that everybody was watching, then Pancrase would have had pressure put on them to start doing more of the closed fists type thing, and we wouldn’t have been prepared for that, and then we would have definitely been crushed by that. But because of me and the success I had in the UFC, Pancrase was able to keep going and producing great fighters and fights- because of my participation in the UFC and me being successful it gave them a bigger name in the world of MMA. 

WC: I wanted to jump ahead a few years before we wrap the interview up as I had a couple other random topics that I always wanted to ask you about.

There was a time around 1999 where it looked like there was a bid to get Pankration, a form of MMA, into the Olympic Games. You and Keith Hackney were two of the coaches. I believe you and Keith were scheduled to fight each other in a Pankration match in September 1999. Whatever happened with that?

KS: I don’t know- it just kind of dissolved. I didn’t hear much about it, I thought it would have been a great idea- at least a starting point for something new, which is something I really love doing- creating things. But, it just kind of phased out. Didn’t hear much about it.

WC: Do you remember any of the Pankration rules that might have separated it from MMA at the time?

KS: I really don’t.

WC: Did you ever spar with Hackney?

KS: No.

WC: Mark Coleman had losses to Maurice Smith and Pete Williams. Then, when he was training for Pedro Rizzo at the end of 1998, he came to your gym. From what I understand- you and Mark had the same management, and that’s how you got in touch? He came down to the Lion’s Den and trained for a couple weeks for Rizzo?

KS: I don’t know if we had the same management, I knew we had seen the same people, and Mark was going through a hard time– he needed some type of refreshing tips, just something different– he needed a fresh start. So I offered my services- he came in, and I was able to work with him a little bit.

WC: I heard that while Mark was there the two of you sparred striking only. Did you guys grapple with each other, and if no- why not?

KS: Well on the ground, there’s no question my level was just far superior to his. There’s just no doubt. He was a great wrestler, no question. And he had good ground and pound. But, when it came to the standup- I felt like I could give him a better opportunity to learn something with me actually doing it with him. But the problem was I wanted him to roll with my other guys that weren’t quite as good, so we could build his confidence up. If he rolls with me on the ground during that time and with the state of mind that he was in at that time, all I would do is basically frustrate him- especially when there’s no striking. That’s what his strength is- and wrestling. If you’ve got a guy that’s straight wrestling and a guy that’s grappling, the advantage goes to the grappler because he’s constantly attacking the submissions. But, if you throw the punches in on the ground- now Mark can actually compete with me, because now he can ground and pound and do the things he does best. And of course, I’m fighting for submissions and also the ground and pound- but it evens things out because he’s able to at least hurt somebody when he’s rolling. You take away that and you say OK Mark, just wrestle and just grapple- it’s a whole different ballgame now. You’re talking about a guy like myself who is one of the best in the world at the grappling, and I just didn’t want to discourage him at all. I wanted him to go there and be confident.

WC: Ken, I’ve covered everything I wanted to- and I’ve definitely taken up more of your time than I was planning on. Thank you very much for everything.

KS: I appreciate it. Thank you.

Hopefully readers now have a bit more insight into not only the history of submission wrestling, but also Ken’s start in the system. While only a smaller percentage of total history was uncovered here, numerous questions were answered and helped piece together a part of the puzzle that many of us love so much- which is MMA.

William Colosimo is a very part time writer who is always interested in interviewing fighters from either a submission wrestling lineage or the no holds barred era of fighting

Ken Shamrock is looking to reacquire all old Lion’s Den video footage- recordings of tryouts, gym fights, etcetera. If anything is in your possession, please feel free to contact him at www.kenshamrock.com

Ken Shamrock is looking to reacquire all old Lion’s Den video footage- recordings of tryouts, gym fights, etcetera. If anything is in your possession, please feel free to contact him at http://www.kenshamrock.com

Part One of Seven: An Introduction to the Hard-style Pro Wrestling

Part Two of Seven: The Professional Wrestling Fujiwara-Gumi

Part Three of Seven: Pancrase

Part Four of Seven: Pancrase Controversy

Part Five of Seven: Creating The Lion’s Den and Entering the First UFC

Part Six of Seven: UFC 2, UFC 3, and the Machado Family